Have You Heard? - Ken Katayama from Crossover Global

We sit with Ken Katayama of Crossover Global and trace how God used a multicultural story, a missions conference, and a hard “no” in Turkey to shape a lifetime of mobilizing the Church toward people with no gospel access. We unpack what it looks like to plant culturally rooted multiplying churches among unreached and unengaged people groups and how listeners can join through prayer, partnership, and giving. 
• Ken’s journey from Brazil to the US and from mixed-faith upbringing to following Jesus 
• A baptism day that becomes a turning point for his whole family 
• The first time he realizes there are people who have never heard about Jesus 
• A defining calling moment in Turkey: going back to send others 
• Why calling cannot be reduced to geography 
• How Crossover Global becomes a global organization with multilingual leadership 
• Church planting as a practical solution to the gospel access problem 
• E1 E2 E3 explained and why cultural proximity can help or hurt 
• Contextualized church life and celebrating diverse expressions of faith 
• Clear partnership paths: fund church planting, churches adopting networks, prayer for unengaged peoples 

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Transcript

A Vision Of Every Nation

SPEAKER_00 0:05

In Revelation 7, John shares his vision of heaven with members from every tribe, tongue, people, and language standing in the throne room before the Lamb. Yet today, there are still over 7,000 unreached people groups around the world. My family and friends have been on a journey to find, vet, and fund the task remaining. Come journey with us to the ends of the earth as we share the supernatural stories of God at work through the men and women he has called to reach the unreached reach.

Meet Ken Katayama

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Hello, friends. Welcome back to the Unreach Podcast. Dustin Elliott here today, your host, and I am with a new friend. This is a referral from Chris Clayman at Joshua Project. So he comes very highly recommended from a very trusted source. This is Mr. Ken Katayama, and he's with Crossover Global. Ken, welcome to the show. Hey Dustin, thanks, man. Appreciate it to have me on. Of course, of course. And you were just saying you're a Brazilian Japanese American, right? So the accent might be hard to pick up for everybody. We'll just go ahead and get that out there first. There's a few different influences, and I don't know, only three continents going on, basically. So

Growing Up Between Faiths And Cultures

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Ken, tell us your story, man. Tell us a little bit about how you got to know the Lord and how you got involved in missions.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Yeah, so I again, yeah, I was born in Brazil. My father, Japanese, mom Brazilian. My grandparents from my father's side came from Japan to Brazil between the two World War I and II. Yeah. So my father, never been to Japan, is like a full Brazilian, if you will, but ethnically Japanese. As I get older, it's kind of amazing, you know, to see how Japanese my father is, uh, how he grew up and and all that. Uh so just growing up in that mix to add it to that whole mix of Brazilian and Japanese, uh, you know, it's kind of let me add this also. It was kind of interesting, even how perhaps God's plan information of what I get to do today, of having a non-practiced Catholic mom and a known Buddhist uh father. Uh, so I was constantly in those two worlds. Like we really grew up like pagans, if you will, and grew up in the southern part of Brazil. So a lot of Europeans immigrant in that part of the part of Brazil. So I was very well educated, I guess. You know, grew up in a in a in a good home in a Mennonite community. So, you know, so I I learned German when I was growing up, which I don't remember at all any day. Uh, but it was uh again, beautiful plan of the Lord in a sense of at the school there with the Mennonites, that's where I met Jesus. So they shared Christ with me, coming from a somewhat a pagan family, if you will. So when I was 15 years old, I I gave my life to Jesus. I was the first one in my house. Uh for months, you know, my faith was the Bible study inside of the school with my friends, you know, uh hanging out. And a guy that who became actually my best friend who shared a lot of Jesus with me as as I was going through, you know, the the process of understanding who Christ was and and what faith uh he told me one day, he said, Hey man, you need to come to church with me. I said, Okay. So it's Sunday. I was like, Sunday, you know. So I mean, I'm completely out of the a world that has no church in my life at all. Yeah. And and so I realized, okay, I gotta figure out how to get to this church. So uh started attending that church. It was his church, a church that his dad was a pastor, actually. About a year or so later, after I came to to know Jesus, oh hey, I realized I gotta be baptized, you know, especially the Mennonite Anabaptist Baptist,

Baptism And A Family Changed

SPEAKER_01 4:00

right? So I've got to be baptized again. So and and that was like a story in itself, because I was baptized as a baby because of my Catholic mom, you know, nothing uh necessarily evil about that, but I had to have that conversation with my parents. And my parents says, Well, we'll come to church to see you. And I was like, Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Wow, yeah, that's encouraging.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

So uh yeah, I remember now because it it was it was July, July 16, 1996. So I gave my age already. So I'm I'm being I which is fine. I'm I'm giving uh you know, I'm being baptized, and in that service, my parents gave their lives to Jesus. Come on, wow, yeah, man. Yes, yeah. So which was so awesome, you know, just seeing you know, seeing this Japanese dad coming to Jesus in a German church is kind of crazy, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:52

If you will. I don't know. I don't know, Ken. Kind of sounds like the throne room, you know. Every tribe, tongue, people, and language. There it is, right there. Amen. Right?

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Amen. Amen. Amen. And eventually I found myself meeting uh uh a girl here in the United States who's now my wife for uh 20 years, moved to the United States basically to to get married, and then I was uh uh you know, thought I'm gonna leave this country, you know. I I don't want to move from a highly populated Christian country to another. You know, I want to be a no-rich people groups, if you will. And the Lord, the Lord had a plan a little bit different. So the United States has been home now for 21 years, and uh I became an American citizen. Very proud, love it. We have four children, they're all Americans and Brazilians, you know, they're dual citizens. Uh, so that's why it's that combination of a Brazilian, Japanese, American, if you will. So with a with a line out of German. I want to have dinner at your house.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

That sounds that sounds like a pretty that sounds like a pretty fun meal, man. Bringing uh some sashimi into the into the spicy Brazilian food, and yeah, I'm I'm in.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

And French fries.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

There you go. There you go. Why not? Why not? I love it.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

So so the joke is that my my kiddos are confused, they really don't know who they are.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

So but they can go anywhere and eat anything at this point, right? I mean, they're they're they're field ready, that's for sure. There we go. There you go. I love it. So, how did you uh how did you meet your wife? Did you meet her once you were in America, or how'd that work out?

SPEAKER_01 6:36

I'll go back just a little bit. So I I have been working with Crossover Global now for 26 years. So I uh I started as an intern in 1999 and I basically never left, you know, with working with the organization. So back in 2004, I kind of little presumptions on the lure, perhaps, or just kind of passionate about what I uh I got the choice to do. I was young, single. And I told our team there in Brazil, saying, hey, if we need to open another office for us around the world, send me, you know, really not knowing what I was asking for, but I, you know, it was just just passionate about what we get to do. And one of the thoughts they had was, hey, we need to put some representation in Canada. So um in 2004, I went to Canada to Montreal, to the Quebec French area, and I spent about two months during the summer working with a small team receiving short-termers from US to work among the Canadian French speaking there. And a girl that was part of that team throughout the summer was my wife's best friend. Okay. So I start talking, I got to, you know, one of those, it's just crazy story. But I remember talking and thinking, yeah, I want to meet this girl. You know, how do I do that? You know, so I I call her from from Canada one time. And my wife uh grew up in Arkansas. So I'm calling it.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Let's go. We got a lot of Arkansas friends on the pond. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Yeah, yeah, go hug. So I so uh so I'm calling I'm calling her from Quebec French with this huge accent, Brazilian dude, you know, and you know, so I I I know now how crazy that was, but you know, hey, uh I I felt like the Lord was leading during that time. It was a it was an interesting one of those. Uh so I I basically in the way back from Canada to Brazil, I changed my flight, had enough miles, went to Little Rock, Arkansas. Uh spent basically a day, I met her, and then I guess the rest of history. So eventually, two years later, we were getting married.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

That is fantastic. I love that. You couldn't slide into her DMs back then, could you, but it wasn't it wasn't quite that easy. So you got to know her, you'd been at crossover. It sounds like you've had some different roles. I mean, you're one of those stories that kind of goes from intern to leading the organization. So maybe help uh help the listeners understand kind of how you progressed through, and let's kind of parallel that with the different roles of a global Christian, from sender to goer, mobilizer, etc.

The Moment The Unreached Became Real

SPEAKER_01 9:23

I'm gonna push back even before I joined the organization. So that that best friend of mine, whom you know ended up going to the church, his father pastor and all that, just a year or so later, after being baptized, became a member of the church, he he told me he said, Hey man, let's go to this missions conference. It was 1997. I'm like, okay, you know, I'll fire up for Jesus. I'm trying to figure out you know how to follow him. Uh so I go to this conference, it's like a one-day event, and I don't remember much of the conference that day itself. I do remember the last message of this American guy who's speaking, and the way I like to say it is that day was the first time I heard that there were people in the world that never heard. And I'm like, oh my goodness. Like this is this is insane, right? So um, so I'm 17 years old and I'm finding myself like I'll go. You know, I'm gonna do something about this thing. Uh having no clue really what I'm dedicating my life for, but I was I was just it was one of those impact moments, you know, from the Lord of like, I cannot believe that people in the world have never heard about Jesus. I mean, what this is crazy. And throughout that that day, one of the interesting dynamics of I now I know because we're talking about unreached people groups, religious blocks, and all that. So I added this little prayer card for the Buddhist world, you know. So I'm like, man, this is like my family tree, you know, like this is this is insane, you know. Like I gotta I gotta share Jesus with my people, you know. And I'm 17 saying, God, I'm gonna serve you, amount the unreached without understanding you very well. Now, that event was the first mobilization event of Crossover Global in Brazil.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

No way. Yes, I had no clue.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

I had no clue who they were. Plot twist. The guy who's speaking, this American guy speaking, is our founder, Dr. Bill Jones, who started Crossover Global. So he was the president for 35 years, and then he passed to pass that to me. So we we're dear, dear friends, obviously. Now he he's a dear mentor. I have met him since I was 17 years old, you know. So uh just two things, real quick.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

One, I just want to sit in the sweetness of that story, right? Like that is just so sweet. And the second thing, what happens when you pray a big prayer? What happens when you find out something that's so shocking to you, so striking, that you just can't believe that there are people on earth that don't even have access, they have no way to know unless we respond to the Great Commission and get involved and get in the game. And you said, Look, all the other things I could do with my life, whatever those things are, irrelevant. I'm giving my life to this. God, send me where you need me. I love that. And I love that your passion today, just a few short years later, is every bit as much energetic and excited as I'm sure it was then. You're still you're all smiles. You love talking about this. You've clearly really enjoyed being on this team, right, for life. And uh I love that our listeners are getting to hear that that same level of excitement and passion and joy for it, man. That's just awesome.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

So uh I'm dedicating my life, I wanna do this. I you know, obviously you there's there's a little bit of emotion, there's the Lord's leading into that moment as well. But I don't know what I'm doing, right? I mean, yeah, what it what do I do next? I mean, do I just get on the boat, you know, and go? You know, so it's gotta so I thought, man, I'm going to reach Japanese people, you know. So I started searching around and and I realized the Japanese people are still one of the most unreached people in the world, which sad because it's too true today, right? After all these decades. And I thought, I'm going to Japan. And it was interesting that everything I tried in my life about going to Japan, it didn't work. You know, and I remember there was kind of some moments of obedience as I prayers that I have prayed that only the Lord heard, you know, and I'm trying to say, man, I gotta obey you now, even though the doors are closing. So when that door closed, I was already doing Bible school during that time, and I had to do like a five weeks internship in a church, some type of ministry. And that's how I happened to become an intern at Crossover Global. Got it. So January, January 10, uh, 1999, I walked into the office in Brazil as an intern. And I remember that day, I actually counted the inventories of the book and walked them up the floor. That was kind of my first day at work. I did that for five weeks. And by the time I was done with my commitment for the school for credit purposes, I'm like, can I come back next Monday? Like, you know, this is I want to just do this. I mean, this is awesome, you know. So we had to go to the whole idea of raising funds and school hours and all that. And so from that time on, so getting back into your question, I moved from intern to start helping with mobilization, uh, and just kind of try to go in churches to help people, you know. Have you ever heard that people never heard about Jesus? You know, it's kind of that was kind of my my my my phrase, if you will. And and I'm and I'm sucking in. I mean, I getting to know so much uh that early back in the day, Crossover Global was was slowly planting churches among former Soviets, uh, you know, so we're working specifically in Moldova. So I'm getting to understand what that is, and how do we plant churches? I mean, I'm just soaking all that in and getting to meet now this entire new world, right, with all these different agencies and people. And now I am part of being a booth in a missions conference, you know. I'm trying to talk to the people, I'm just trying to uh to learn that that this new world. And very soon there I realized, wow, I you know, short term is probably one of the most efficient ways of getting people to to realize how to do this. So for for a while I led short term. It was kind of my title.

Turkey And The Call To Mobilize

SPEAKER_01 16:22

But it was a it was a short season, but it was a a God driven season, at least you know, from a selfish perspective, if you will, for me because in 2002 I went to Turkey. And so now it's the first time now I am really in a Muslim majority world, and I'm actually seeing flesh, no longer pictures, right? I've got people that never heard about Jesus. I mean, what you know, this is incredible. And and I remember being there, so again, I'm singles, just kind of enjoying life, serving God. And I call my parents from Turkey, said mom, dad, I'm not, I'm not going home. I'm gonna stay here. Yeah, like this, this is it. I have prayed for the Buddhist world, the Japan. Nothing, none of those things works. I did not know about this. I'm like so shocked about you know the minerates, the code of prayer, and I'm I'm seeing all this lostness, and and I realized, hey, I I can just stay here. And then I had probably one of the hardest, uh divine, but hardest moment to into my journey with the Lord because I remember telling you can always make a movie out of it, if you will, because uh I'm sitting in the rocks at the Aegean Sea in the smear, not the smear, Turkey, all this boats passing through this beautiful day. I got the team to the devotional, so I'm doing my devotional with the Lord and I'm saying, Lord, I'm gonna stay here. And the Lord said no. And I'm like, No, no, no, no. I uh no Lord. You know, the moment that you start telling God how you know the plans for your life, you know, it's like so like no Lord, I uh no, you don't understand. Like there's nothing in Brazil for me. I gotta I gotta be here. And you know, I didn't have these experiences all the time, you know. But that day I heard God speaking to me like audibly. Here's what he said he says, go back and send people in your place. And I whip, you know, I'm got feeling like like a uh you know, trying to fight with the Lord and losing you, which then means you win, you know. So I remember getting back on the plane thinking, Lord, I can't believe that uh I'm doing this, but I'm gonna obey you. And I I I felt like that was the clarity from the calling of that you know, 17-year-old teenager, now 22 years old, and I'm young there, but I'm realizing, man, God called me to be a mobilizer. God called me to tell people that there's people that never heard about Jesus, you know. So it was it was such a a key moment of calling in identity, you know, purpose, kind of refocus, recenter life into that dynamic. So uh from that on, man, I I was on, you know. So I I became the mobilization director, if you will, you know, because I'm like how I know what I'm supposed to do. I'm gonna mobilize people, I'm gonna go all over the place, I'm gonna send takes hurt on teams. And that was kind of part of that idea of going to Canada, you know, linking that that that story. I'm gonna go to Canada, I'm gonna open an office, we're gonna mobilize Canadians. Like that was kind of part of that that desire, the heart of the calling. And got married when I moved here to the United States to get married, to learn life, learn, you know, dynamic of being married. I still had that fire saying, I'm going to mobilize people. I mean, God called me to be uh a mobilizer, and here in the United States, slowly, uh Dr. Bill Jones, who's our founder, so now I'm hanging out with him like day in, day out, because he's in the office. I'm in the office in US, uh and and other people from our board, and they say, hey, you know, we need to to kind of bring you a little bit more into our leadership. So uh I remember finding myself in a board meeting as a guest, and I remember sitting in that board meeting I didn't have English enough to understand the meeting. I mean, seriously, I'm like, I don't even know what was happening here right now. Like, you know, they're talking about nonprofit governance stuff, right? So I'm like, I I what am I doing here? You know, I you know, just it was just this this surreal experience, if you will. But uh, you know, our our founder, I guess, has saw something in me that I I didn't know, which was uh the ability of of, you know, I believe that's from the Lord of being an organizational leader, someone that can see how do we get people that get excited, mobilized to go truly accomplish, finish the task, get churches established. Uh and but there are organizations that you know we get so excited about doing there's so much issues about the sender, deploying, working, the dynamic of

Calling Without Geography

SPEAKER_01 21:48

global south, global north. And and I found myself like kind of in the middle of the two worlds, if you will, for a for a little bit, you know, and trying to realize man, there's there's there's the This myssiological dynamic. And I'm not criticizing just a or not being critical in a negative way. I am criticizing maybe the the dynamic where we shift the pendulums. Yeah. To you know, and and I think the the the the better answer is trying to figure out the proper tension. You know, it's like, hey, it it's you know, I think we're we're we're kind of living this end right now with it's all about global south, all about global north. It's like, well, you know, I think it's all about the reach to the unreach, right? I don't think it matters which which global you will you were born, right? You know, right. Are you reached with Christ? Well, the great commission is for you to go reach those that never heard about Jesus. And I think the dynamic of how working with that proper tension uh has been a has been a gift. And so I my last job before before I I became the president of the organization was um as an executive VP, I was tasked to reorganize crossover global to become a global organization. So we are uh today we're in 40 different countries, and we have about 170 staff on our team from 23 different nationalities. We speak uh six official languages inside of the organization, even the idea of on the leadership, you need to know English. So we it's like, no, you know, why why do you need to know English? Why can I now know your language? You know, so kind of shifting some of those handolings into it. Uh about one-third of our staff are actually representatives of unreached people groups right now. So in fact, our executive vice president is a former Shia from Azerbaijan.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

It reminds me of quotes from the past and uh the mission field has become the mission force being one of those quotes. And I think you know how we've been trying to shift the pendulum from the west to the rest, and and you're talking north and south, and I mean really it's just if you're if you if you're on the team, you're on the team, right? And you've got to find a way to play a role. And the thing is there's a role for everyone to play. Your role changed throughout your life, and our ours will too. There will be some of us called to the marketplace to go, you know, make a few bucks and fund the work. Some of us are called to go and speak at conferences and mobilize, some of us are called to actually actually pick up and move and go. And it's a collaborative effort. It takes everyone. And it's an invitation for everyone. I mean, it was very clear in the Great Commission. Jesus really didn't leave a lot of room for error. Uh, he told us exactly what to do. So, you know, we're either responding to that clarion call and and doing it, or we're not. And I just I love that you're on here talking about just the joy of responding to that call and just saying, All right, I'll go to Japan, not Japan, I'll go to Turkey. Not Turkey, I'll go to Canada. Not Canada, okay, South Carolina, let's try that. All right, great, here we go, right? And finding your role in it and then embracing the shift uh through your life um of your role. So what a great, what a great story, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

One of the things I have yeah, I haven't found out over the years now, at least that's my my personal assessment, is that uh, you know, historically missions has been so driven into the moving of geography, which it it's part of it, obviously. Um, but it it it is sad to see sometimes uh the calling become the geography, not what you're supposed to do when you're there. You know, and I and I think that experience in Turkey for me, it kind of solidified what God has called me to do no matter what I am in the world. But what but I found that I I see a lot of times happening to to missionaries, to people, pioneer, great people, great hard, they're calling, but they had they don't have a clarity of what God called them to do independently where they are. So they're their calling keeps shifting as geography changes with them. And and um, and I think that the the Great Commission dynamic kind of hurts at times because we're not we're not recruiting, mobilizing people, helping them to understand, you know, your calling doesn't have to be connected to a geography, you know, your calling needs to be an understanding of what God called you to be. And and how can you be that independently where it puts you on, you know. So if God called you to be a church planter, well, great. You know, how many disciples are you making where you are today? Right. You know, because if he called you to do that, to be that, then it's gonna use naturally, right? You don't you don't give commission and become a church planter when you get on the plane and cross the ocean, right? It it happened back here. And I think people who understand that they are more successful, if you will, from a from a human perspective into obeying and and being fruitful in that calling.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Yeah, so you know, grow where you're planted is kind of a short version of that. And I think the the daily kind of rhythms that we go through to grow where we're planted is very clear in in the Bible as well. And it's a get up in the morning, it's a die to self, it's a get on our knees and pray, it's get in the word, study the word, and you know, shift your prayer life and your Bible reading life from kind of how can this book help me accomplish what I'm trying to accomplish to God, reveal your will to me, reveal who you are to me, and reveal the plan you have for my life. How do I align my life to your will? How do I play the role you've built and created me to play? Candidly, Ken, you were kind of bred for this. You know, I mean, look at your genealogy and background and kind of all that I mean, you were kind of bred to be this kind of um glue, if you will, in the middle of these pieces. And I love that your mentor saw that in you, and that I'm sure your your perspective and a lot of these boardrooms and conversations has been very valuable to break that cultural divide into you know, back into just big C church. We're all part of the Big C church and we all have a role to play, right? Um, tell us let's shift real quick into the to to cross over

Crossover Global And Church Planting Results

SPEAKER_00 28:58

global today. Sure. Uh you talked about being in 40 countries, you gave us an idea of the staff, but kind of give us a uh vision casting of what the organization is doing. If somebody's hearing this and they're thinking about you know their next step in how they play their role in the Great Commission, what would they want to hear about your organization? How could they engage? That kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Crossover Global is a church-flinting organization, uh, highly solely focused on the unreached, unengaged people groups of the world. So a very super, super narrow perspective uh of our calling. We enjoy partnering with a ton of other organizations to do some of the the other things around. So I will we have at this moment some partnership with Bible engagement and Bible translation because of the challenge of the church growth and maturity among these unreached people groups. So we're a church planting organization. Now uh a good phrase to kind of remember our our our big why. You know, we're obviously we're motivated that Jesus will get the glory among all peoples of the earth, but what we do as you know every day, or why we do the phrase is you know, spiritual needs are everywhere in the world, but access to the good news is not. You know, so spiritual needs are everywhere, but access it's not. So what we're trying to do, we're trying to provide gospel access to these unreached people groups. We're trying to solve the problem of lack of gospel access of these people that I never heard about Jesus, right? How do I hear? And you know, we believe that the most efficient, effective, local, indigenous way of doing that, of getting that access to the gospel is through planting churches. Is the body of Christ, Christ centered, biblically found, but culturally relevant into reaching that people? Every church has the ability, the possibility to become a point of gospel access to that unreached people group. So uh a little phrase that says, you know, so what did what do you guys do? Well, we multiply church planters to plant multiplying churches. That's what we do. We multiply church planters to plant multiplying churches. Yeah, we want to do that among unreached people groups. So uh we have you know God's grace here. Um we are very excited, you know, unreached people realities, they're in places, as you know, that uh they're they're persecuted. The church is not uh what we see in the West. So we have started, you know, thousands of house churches. Uh and um and these house churches have multiplied. So we uh the number of the last um quarter, no quarter one, cumulative through our history. We have started 7,441 house churches among 513 different unreached people groups in the world.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Oh Lord, man. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

And and one of the things that that aches our heart as an organization, we get to work a lot with uh some of these uh unreach people groups itself. We've seen a lot of multiplication among these these unreached. So we we have seen some of these networks, associations of house churches uh reach up to five generations of churches into their multiplication. But it's still there is a a segment of the unreached people group called the unengaged peoples and even the frontier people, as you look into uh how Joshua Project also added that uh that that connotation. These people need a pioneer in church planting to be the boy. So you know, we get to enjoy seeing a little bit more rapid, uh cheaper, if you will, faster culturally there, to partnering with locals. But you know, the the the necessity of the mobilization of the church to go into these unengaged people groups. So I I'll tell you one example because sometimes we say this, we're thinking only Western, right? So America's Brazilians, and or or you know, just uh the the the West going to the rest of the world, which was the pioneering doesn't need it, it's important, needs to happen. It's Romans chapter 10, right? How would they profess in the one they never heard? How that's gonna take place, the five, the four questions is somebody don't don't go there, right? So that that's important, but it's it's really interesting when you look to these uh unengaged people groups, we're uh already mobilizing unreached people groups from a from a data perspective, but they're reached with Christ to go to the unengaged people. Right. So we have just a quick example. So in the country of um uh in the Caucasus region there, there is a people group that's too unreached from from uh stats, but that people group actually move into an unengaged people group, a minority within their own country, and they went there to reach them, and now there's six house churches among that people group. Uh, they they're wrestling to figure out how to translate the Bible in their language and all that. So what we do is we mobilize the church, no matter where the church is, who it is, so we're gonna mobilize the church so we can multiply church planters that will plant multiply churches.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Yeah, that's beautiful. So can you maybe um it sounds like you've got a good grasp on E3, E2, E1. Sure. Right? Maybe break

E1 E2 E3 Strategy And Local Multiplication

SPEAKER_00 35:00

that down for the listeners and and kind of how you see the efficacy of if you can get a neighboring kind of tribe or village to go to the neighbor, how that can be more culturally relevant.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

That e scale comes from Dr. Winter, right, back uh in 1974, and as that developed out of after the Lil Zan uh movement uh uh meet first meeting. What we realize is every time we look into the unreached people groups, we are looking into uh E3 and perhaps uh E2, meaning E3 is their how far, how cross-cultural they are from the person communicating the gospel, right? So uh an unengaged people group, it's required uh E3. There's no one within their own people that could go and share to evangelize that it requires a cross-cultural evangelism. Now, what we found out, which I think is beautiful about how the gospel eventually, the Great Commission perhaps will be fulfilled, is that as we reach these unreached people groups and help to mobilize them to go as well, some of these people groups they're in a cultural proximity. You know, they're they're the new co the near culture relationship where as they go, they still going cross-culturally, but they are going cross-culturally with a little less of cultural resistance, right? Because they're they perhaps they were all part of the same nationality in the same country, but they're two different orchids of people groups there.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

So that's they may share a trade language, you know, they may look a little bit similar, they may certainly have had historical experience in trade or possibly in war exactly uh with these people, right? So there's some there's a lot more connectivity there um at that at that level.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Exactly. And that then that would be you know the the the scalp, Dr. Winter will be the E2. Now something that we have found out, especially in Central Asia, that sometimes because of the history, which is part of the proximity, but the history comes a lot of animosity, wars, uh, you know, uh ethno uh conflicts, that the nearer culture, they may be the worst people to go reach them. Yeah, it could be. You know, it's kind of interesting. So so it's kind of that that it's an important strategic component, but it has to be studied, not just assume.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Why are we gonna trust you? Why are we gonna trust you now? And like stories like The Peace Child, right? And how and how they would play that out.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

Yeah, so and and then what we realize, which is awesome, and and I think this is where multiplication takes place, is that once you get people to to that the you know that that cross that barrier of the E3, E2 type evangelism, oh now we're gonna have some fun because now we get the chance to see E0, E1, right? The within the own culture. How do we do you know, gospel proclamation? How do we get that good news into these people groups uh within their own cultural uh uh uh proximity, within their own language, uh getting Bibles into their own language or figuring out, you know, the these in-reach people groups, probably one of the most amazing privilege I have in my in my in my ministry life is to actually walk with this brand new expression of faith of the body of Christ among people groups that never heard about Jesus. And instead of bringing, you know, any type of ecclesiology that I think is right, you know, from a cultural relevance, and try to figure out like, hey, you know, how you know, when you see the you know, the Lord's Supper here, the way Jesus did, how would you do that for you? Hey, when you read Acts 2.42 that they devoted themselves to the apostle teaching, pray, you know, how how do you think that should happen inside of a house church? And just getting them to express this new way, which I think that's where we should celebrate diversity, right? It's the diversity of that expression of faith that gets God the greatest glory, and that is awesome because then you start seeing the multiplication of that into these people groups.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

So can I just repeat that? That was awesome. Sure. The diversity of the expression of faith that gives God the glory. That is such a good line, Ken. That might need to go on the website, brother. I love that. I love that. Well, it's clear, I think it's clear for the listeners. I mean, you you've given your life to this, you've got a really, really solid grasp on it. I don't think Chris Klayman would have referred you to us if that wasn't the case. I think he's gonna be fired up to hear hear the pod come out and tell your story. And so maybe one step further, how could how could someone partner with Crossover

Funding Churches And Adopting Networks

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Global? Is there an opportunity to support you financially? Is there an opportunity to maybe do a short-term trip with you or volunteer with you? Uh could they introduce Crossover to the missions department of their church? Uh tell us kind of that that step.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Yeah, the the financial partnership is always always welcome. Uh the way we do is we uh you know, we always have goals of the churches we want to start. You know, we're pretty simple in that sense. We're star churches. So we we don't have a whole lot of programs and campaigns. We we want to start churches and unreach people group. Is that and and over the years as we look the cost of of you know getting into these places, reach them, helping with resources, getting that church to be self-led, self-sustained, mature, you know, with transportation, with training, what the the allocation of that fund, it basically costs us on average $1,800 to plan a church. $1,800. That's it. Like that's what it costs. Not a month, that's it. You know. So uh and so this this is fun because some some people that want to give, they feel like, man, I I like to plant a church, right? So it's kind of it's a way to give an average of what what cost us to see a house church start it. So this is that would be awesome. Website has different ways to to give there.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

One more time for the listeners. You can plan a church with Crossover Global for eighteen hundred dollars. You could go on, you could make a gift, one time gift, you could do a monthly uh campaign to get there, and you could be a part of dramatically affecting eternity for an entire people group. They've done the hard work, they're decades of experience here. They've got the economies of scale broken down to a level that anyone can participate in this. So just want to make sure that's clear. No, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

So the second thing is more for a church. So one of the things we try to do as a church blending organization was kind of silly to not be engaged with local churches. And and again, I know I'm generalizing what I'm about to say, but the whole bad rap that, you know, agencies want to the money mess people and get out of the way, type of, you know, uh, you know, argument between how long, you know, local churches and agencies. We we realize, man, we gotta we gotta figure out how to close that gap as much as we can. Uh so we we truly believe that the church is the sending institution of what needs to go. Now I'm not criticizing sending agencies by no means. We are sending people, but I think the the the biblical, you know, sending uh of workers to plant churches. In other words, churches should be planting churches. So you're here's what we realize.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

And then working with groups like you to train them, right? And to utilize what you've learned and utilize the economies of scale and utilize the people that are already nearby, right? It's a partnership, but but the foundation is the local church sending.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

That's right. Yeah, so so when we we get that that reality and on the other side of the equation among these people groups, that's what we're all for. We want to see the maturation, the establishment of these churches that we come multiplying among their own people. We we have experience really, really exciting. As these pockets of new house churches are being birthed, they asked us, how do we organize ourselves? Then eventually these little associations, right, which almost would be like a denomination, if you will, but we are trying to get away from that because it just carries a lot of presumptions that there are not there, you know, from a theological doctrine perspective. No doubt. So these associations we call them networks of churches. So we realize the best partnership. That a local church can do with us is actually to partnering in adopting a network of church with us. Not a people group, but a network of church.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Where that network church is trying to figure out how do I do funeral, how do I empower leaders? How do I ordain, you know, common ordinary men and you know that are there, open their homes and leading these house churches. And uh it allows us as a crossover global to continue a uh our apostolic pioneering calling into moving to new people groups, but not abandoned, you know, with fear of secretism and all that, getting churches engaged. So that that's another, you know, for the churches itself, we'll love to have that kind of conversation uh on how do we build relationships with networks of churches and local churches. Um, there are several churches that haven't done that already. So uh, but there are 31 different networks right now.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

However, they're they're open there, so we'll love to have that conversation. Adopt a network of churches. How great is that? Okay, so we've done a similar model uh where where we adopt a people group, right? So there's already a sending org with boots on the ground like Pioneers or Ethnos or GSI, and we have a portfolio and and we go out and kind of vet those and find and not that we're funding everything that's happening in that group, right? But a lot of the additional funding that's needed maybe for translation. Uh, one example, we built a runway on a mountain in Papua New Guinea uh just to help get medical people in when we're needed, things like that. Um so there's there's these additional needs. But this is the same concept, but just this is the the we're in the growth side of the equation, you're in value, right? If you're thinking about it like a stock market investment, but you're saying no, get a network of churches. That's fascinating. I love that concept. Um and it sounds like you've got availability, you've got some some uh opportunity for adoption. So uh somebody at a church could hear this and reach out and say, hey, we want to grab a network, we've got a proclivity for this particular part of the world or this kind of religious background, and uh and get in there and not that you're gonna be responsible for everything that happens there, but you're gonna get to pray, you're gonna get to connect, and you're gonna get to join the team, and you're gonna get to do some of the funding, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:24

Yeah, in fact, even the funding is it, you know, it's gonna show up, but it's one of the least on this partnership. And here's why we wanted the networks to become independent from anything from us, from from governance to teaching themselves so

Interdependence And A High Stakes Example

SPEAKER_01 46:40

they can teach others and you know, but then within the the the churches, the local churches, uh, that the church will figure out some type of way that the network will found out some type of way of sustaining themselves for I gotta buy more Bibles, I got a problem here with the government, right? So they're not calling us or uh a Western church, can you give us give us some money? So we we're trying to move that church to become independent from any of these things. The big thing here as we connect with these local churches is this. We want the network of church to become interdependent and not just independent. Mini. We want to come in with you, local church. We're gonna mobilize that network of church so that maybe we're gonna have pioneer people from your church to the churches there. We're gonna build some teams and go to other unengaged people groups. So we're gonna do this, we're gonna build an interdependency. We're just yeah, we don't want to just, hey, we're gonna make you independent today.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Okay, all right. Let me see if I can put this into an analogy that hit me. It's kind of like raising God's kids, right? You raise them, and at some point around 18 or so, you want them kicking out of the house and going and independently uh of you providing for themselves and finding their own calling, right? But interdependently still connected to a local church, still thriving in their local community, still being discipled and hopefully soon making disciples, right? So it's the same kind of concept. You're with them from an early stage to a certain point. You make the introductions and then you kind of hand that off. And I think the the beautiful, thriving, indigenous-led disciple-making local church is now self-funding through its own tithes, it now has its own network, it's now supporting its own community through its own programs and ways that they matter in that culture. Is that kind of spot on?

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Yeah, that's that's exactly right. So I'll give you an example that's happening right now. I I'm gonna say some of the names for security purpose, but here's what's happening there is a a unengaged people group in the country of Iran right now. And we have a team in a place of the world from a network of churches ready to go into the country whenever whatever happens to this conflict, right? And they're gonna go straight to this specifically unengaged people group. Well, there's a church in Atlanta, Georgia, who has adopted that network, and part of that adoption, they were looking to a unengaged people group to commit themselves to translate the Bible through elimination. Well, it so happened that this network of church in this country that is adopted by this American church is going to the unengaged people group that the church is committed to translate the Bible. Come on. And all of that inside of the country of Iran right now. So we're just waiting, you know. And that but that's the dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

Man, when you hear that, how do you not want that to be part of your story? Like, how do you not want your family, your company, your church, your small group, D group, life group, whatever group you call it? How do you not want to be a part of one of those? I mean, that's just that's right. That's what it's about. That's yeah, and it doesn't take that much. That's the other thing, right? I mean, it's it's yes, so you should give your life to this. Yes, you should be making disciples locally, less you should be reaching the unreach globally. Like, but but to take the logical next step to get in this game, you know, with crossover can be eighteen hundred bucks, and you can be part of part of supporting and planning of a church.

SPEAKER_01 50:30

And I just to add one last

Praying For People With No Access

SPEAKER_01 50:32

get involved. You can get involved through prayer. So here's here's the big deal for us. Most people don't care and don't talk about it, they don't pray about it of things that they are they're unaware of. They don't know about it. Remember the whole, you know, for the first time I heard that there's people that never heard about Jesus. We created a little campaign called No Access. So it's a no access dot info. It's actually uh, you know, Josh a project is on on this partnership. I have a little uh thing. It is all about the unengaged people groups. But here's here's the thing within this campaign here, uh we want we created a 35 different unengaged people groups for you to pray. So uh that little prayer guide is a free thing. You can it's a PDF. We wanted people to pray for these unengaged people groups. The prayer guide is actually on e-version. If you look across over global in eal version, it's one of those devos. You can do a devotional as well. So uh I just don't want to miss this. I mean, that you know, money is awesome. You know, God uses that. Uh, partnerships with churches is awesome. But listen, you know, get the church to pray for those that have no believers, no bibles, no churches, you know. Let's saturate the throne of God with asking for these nations and that the Lord will raise up workers into that harvest field.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

So well said. Well, hey, we all we both know that that's covert ops because when you get somebody busy praying for somebody else, there's probably going to be some feet that get added to those prayers at some point. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. That's a great way to put it. Uh, Ken, you were a just fantastic guest, man. Your energy is just contagious. I'm more fired up uh today than I've been in a long time. Just for spending this time with you, I pray that our listeners have that same experience as they uh get to engage with this episode and kind of just be reinvigorated for the task remaining. Clint and I say this all the time, you know, this this could happen in our lifetime. You brought up illuminations, right? Mark Green, he's got that them focused on completing translation by 2033. You've got other groups that are like, well, you can't just translate the Bible without planting a church and without having people. But hey, here's Ken with his group saying, look, we're bringing the church plant and we're bringing the people. And Mart's handling the translation because they figured out how to use technology and resources to do that really well. And we're locking arms and we're going together. And that is what's gonna get the job done. That's where we're headed. I can't believe we're alive at this time, Ken. I just can't believe we get to live right now and be a part of this. It's it's what motivates us, it's what gets us up and going every day. I mean, Clint and I just pinch ourselves. I don't mean we probably text five times a week on something that we hear about that we're like, man, I can't believe this. I can't believe that. So, man, brother, it is so nice to meet you. Yes, likewise, likewise. You're absolutely on my on my prayer list now. I looked you up on NCF, crossovers on there. You've got a bunch of givers already supporting you uh through the National Christian Foundation. Um, I think Clint and I would like to would like to add to that as well. So we want to plan a church with you. So we're gonna commit, we're gonna commit to do that financially. I know we don't want to only talk about finances, but I'm a finance guy at heart. So uh we want to get we want to get in the game with you and come alongside you, man. So um Thank you, my friend. Of course, of course. Honored, honored. We always ask our guests to pray uh for the listeners at the end of the episode, Ken. If you want to, we would invite you to pray first in your native language, a different language than English. Yes, okay. And then if you want to translate to English, that would be awesome. I'll be glad to.

SPEAKER_01 54:18

I'll be glad to pray. Uh, that's Portuguese, so uh Senor Jesus

Final Prayer And How To Respond

SPEAKER_01 54:25

for the opportunity to take access to the Evangel of Christ Jesus and commissioners, chamado to communicate this evangelical to those who nunca, for that Sua Igreja stage established into those nations, for honor and glory of Soname. Lord Jesus, we are uh grateful that you have saved us, called us, that uh we got the chance to hear that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light. And we're not only have the privilege of being saved, but also we are commissioned to make sure that those that have never heard will get the chance to hear as well. So here we are. Uh would you use our lives for your glory so that all peoples of the world will get the chance to hear, to worship you, so that your church, as you promised, will be built among all peoples of the world for your honor and for your glory that we pray.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

Amen. And amen. Thank you for listening to Unreached. Our sincere desire is that what you've heard today will cause you to see the mission of God differently and your role in it more clearly. If this adds value for you, and we hope it does, would you please rate and review the podcast wherever you listen? Also share with your family, your friends, your church, your life group, small group, D group, wherever you do life. And if you want to connect with us, find us on Instagram at unreached podcast or email us at unreached podcast at gmail.com.